Friday, December 4, 2009

Brooklyn Comics and Graphics Festival


Come out this Saturday to the Brooklyn Comics and Graphics Festival and stop by the Ho12 table to see some stuff from the up coming Comixology iPhone project and pick up the latest issue of House of Twelve, Touching Children's Stories for all the weird kids in your life. The show runs from 11-7 and we'll have an excellent selection of rotating guests through out the day, Miss Lasko-Gross, Sam Henderson, Jenny Gonzalez, AYO and special guest Adam Suerte will be running around being all kinds of sacrilegious and shit.

Friday, November 27, 2009

One last time before the apocalypse




One last time for 2009 I invite you to the Ho12 Comic Jam. Come on out you fucking monkeys!

Thursday, December 3, 2009
7 pm to 11ish

Jack Demsey's Pub
36 West 33rd Street, in the basement
New York, NY


Monday, November 2, 2009

YOU! Come to the jam!




Yes, another in our long line of spectacular showcases takes place this week and you — yes! YOU! — the general public are invited! Come on down to Jack Demsey's pub this Thursday at 7 pm for all the excitement live comic bookery can deliver! Your eyes will explode in your fucking head after you see what spectacular awesomeness that will be delivered by our special team of socially retarded supernauts. Come see what real-life shut-ins look like, it's abso-fucking-lutely the single most important coronary-inducing event of the season!

Bring some pencils and paper and shit too.

Special note: The jam will be wrapping up a little early this month due to an art opening fellow jammer Stacy Swane is having down at Niagara the same night.

Ho12 Comic Jam
Jack Demsey's Pub
36 w. 33rd st. Downstairs
Thursday, November 5, 2009
7 pm - 10:30


Wednesday, October 21, 2009

What should we name it?

Somewhere in the world there are a dozen cartoonists working on comics for Ho12's iPhone project with Comixology. With that underway there are several things we need to take care of so we can start on the next phases of the project. One being, what the hell do we call it? So far I've got a few ideas, but none really stick. Any ideas? So far my fave is iHo12, but that's kinda tired.

Tuesday, October 13, 2009

The Pros and Cons of Brooklyn

I was pretty vocal about my disgust about last year's MoCCA Festival and opined for an alternative. Apparently my cries were heard and two new 'indie' shows haves sprung up in the last few weeks.

First is KingCon, happening in early November. The show is a spin-off off the Brooklyn ZineFest. At first it sounded like a good idea, but the more and more I heard about it the more it soured. The program lists several seemingly unrelated events including a classic video gaming championship, a LOLcat caption contest and several panels revolving around DC and their various properties. That doesn't sound too 'indie,' it also burned my ass that the Zinefest tables were $40 and KingCon tables are $200 and up. I nearly jumped on this show regardless.

Then Ho12 iPhone contributor Sam Henderson clued me in to the Brooklyn Comics and Graphics Festival, happening on December 5th. So far this show's guests include Charles Burns, Kim Deitch, Gary Panter and about a half-dozen more solid, alternative cartoonists. The show is being put on by the Brooklyn comics shop Desert Island and publisher PictureBox, so their indie cred is pretty grounded. I don't think they'll be any LOLcat naming contests at that show.
So, for a multitude of reasons I'm going with the BCGF, the paperwork is on its way and looks like we'll be seeing you in December.

Friday, October 9, 2009

Ho12 on ISR!

Today's Indie Spinner Rack podcast features Dave McKenna and I talking up Ho12#5, Monstaland and the iPhone deali-o. Check it out, we were hungover, but I think that only enhanced the love.

Monday, September 28, 2009

SPX 2009 and October Comic Jam

So another SPX has come and gone, I'll come up a with an extended wrap up later this week, suffice to say, we did spectacularly. Ho12#5 went over well and Dave McKenna's Monstaland was a huge hit. All in all we moved more units at this show then ever before and a great time was had by all, even though I spent Sunday in hangover hell.

Hey, look at that, it's jam week! I totally missed it, too caught up in the Ho12 madness. So come out and jam this week, Jack Demsey's, 36 West 33rd street, downstairs, 7 pm until we can't see straight. Comics!




Tuesday, September 22, 2009

Well fuck.

UPS tried to deliver Ho12#5 today but I had to be at stupid work. I realistically won't be able to get them until Thursday evening, the day before we leave for SPX. Which I guess in all truth is fine, seeing that even if there is something horribly wrong with them I am bringing them anyways. We'll be rolling into Bethesda in about 72 hours. I am anxious.

Tuesday, September 15, 2009

House of Twelve #5 to debut at SPX 2009




The House of Twelve gang returns with it's latest, greatest with House of Twelve #5: Touching Children's Stories. Seventy-four pages of comic masterwork from New York's new line of alt-comics superstars. Ho12#5 is an all-ages comic anthology full of heart-warming tales of blissful youth depicted as only a bunch of misanthropic curmudgeons could.

Contributors include:

Kevin Colden / Miss Lasko-Gross / Jenny Gonzalez / K. Thor Jensen / Dave McKenna / Kate Lacour / FuFu Frauenwhal / Chris Garrison / Frank Reynoso / Evan Forsch / Darryl Ayo / Cheese Hasselberger / Nick Jeffrey / Hugo / Brian Musikoff / Rodá

House of Twelve #5: Touching Children's Stories will debut at the Small Press Expo in Bethesda, MD on September 26, 2009 and retails for $7.95. It will also be available from www.houseoftwelve.com and various independent comics distributors and outlets as well as exclusively online through the Comics iPhone app by Comixology.

Check out some new samples below.

Dave McKenna

Miss Lakso-Gross

FuFu Frauenwahl

Chris Garrison

Nick Jeffrey

Cheese Hasselberger

Wednesday, September 2, 2009

Why are these guys smiling?

Because it's the eighth anniversary of the Ho12 Comic Jams, of course!

Eight years ago a half dozen of New York's finest comics arteeests came together and created something wonderful, the Bowery Bowel Movement comic jams. Since then we've moved out of the Bowery and just changed the name, but it's many of the same folks and dozens more meeting every month to get drunk and draw comics. Come on out!

Thursday, Sept. 3rd, 2009
7pm
Demsey's Pub
36 W. 33rd Street, UPSTAIRS! (usually we're in the basement)

Bring your moms!

Monday, August 24, 2009

House of Twelve #5: Touching Children's Stories is done!

I'm going to spend the evening taking one last look over Ho12#5 and then it's going to the printer. I am abso-fucking-lutely thrilled to say it's done. It looks great too! The book will make it's big debut at the Small Press Expo in Bethesda, MD next month and be available from www.houseoftwelve.com then too. It'll also be one of the first things you can get from us on the iPhone through Comics by Comixology come October (along with a series of selections from the back catalog). Ho12#5 will retail for $7.95 for the paper version and $1.99 for the digital. It is 72 pages, has a full color cover by Kevin Colden and Miss Lasko-Gross and black and white interiors and is our first All-Ages book. Contributors include: Nick Jeffery, Jenny Gonzalez, Fufu Frauenwahl, Kate Lacour, Dave McKenna and yours truly, to name a few. Be sure to get your hands on it any way you can!

Next up: redesigning the website and getting ready for the monthly Ho12 book through Comics starting in January.

edit: I can't spell!

Friday, July 31, 2009

Above, this years 'weiner' of the Ho12 award for frankfurter excellence.

Another month, another jam. Ho-hum. Blah, blah, blah. Insert joke here.

Bring your pens, pencils, paper and bad attitudes to:

Ho12 Comic Jam
Thursday, August 6th, 7pm - 11ish
Jack Demsey's Pub
36 West 33rd St.
New York City


Wednesday, July 29, 2009

House of Twelve #5: Touching Children's Stories 9/09!




Here are the front and back covers for the next Ho12, due out this September at the Small Press Expo in Bethesda, MD. The cover is by Kevin Colden and Miss Lasko-Gross.

The book is a real deal, honest to goodness all ages book done by your favorite underground smut-peddlers. So you can expect the Happy Meal version of all our favorite Team 12 themes.

See as the familiar boy who wouldn't grow up tempts the children to indulge in their imaginations...

...with tragic results.






Friday, July 24, 2009

Ho12 on the iPhone




Ho12 will be undergoing massive changes. I am proud to announce we have just signed on to create monthly content exclusively for Comixology's new iPhone app, appropriatly called, Comics.

Comics is designed and administrated by Iconology, Inc. outta New York City, who are the same guys who run Comixology.com, a site that integrates the convenience of the web with local comics retailers providing store-specific pull lists and new comic previews. Comics costs $.99 and individual comics vary in price. It allows folks to buy single issues as well as subscribe to their favorite series and comes with over 30 free comics to get you started, some good ones too, Mage, Skyscrapers of the Midwest and The Walking Dead to mention a few.

Comics and is available through the Apple App store and is exclusive to the iPhone and iPod Touch devices (and all generations of each). Click here to check it out.

House of Twelve will start running "Best of" issues in October for free (as well as Ho12#5:Touching Children's Stories for a couple of bucks) and starting in January Team Twelve will begin delivering new and original comics though the Comics App. The book will be 24 pages long and feature a rotating cast of Indie/Alt comics all-stars, including:

Fredo Noland (Black Sheep, Midnight Creep)
Miss Lasko-Gross (Escape From Special, A Mess of Everything)
Sam Henderson (Magic Whistle)
Kate Lacour (Milk Teeth, Ho12)
Jenny Gonzalez (Too Negative, Ho12)
Dave McKenna (Monstaland, Ho12)
Cheese Hasselberger (Ho12 Team Captain)
Kevin Colden (Eisner Nominated Fishtown, I Rule the Night)
Darryl Ayo Brathwaite (Little Garden, Ho12)
Bald Eagles, aka Victor Cayro, aka The Beard (Kramer's Ergot, Typhon, Ho12)
K. Thor Jensen (Red Eye, Black Eye, Ho12)

Some artists will use the space for single issue one shots, others for continuing story-lines. We plan on inventing how stories can be told in this new and exciting mobile world.

www.houseoftwelve.com is currently undergoing a redesign that will include author profiles and samples from everyone. That's going to take me some time to finish though, so in the meantime, the current site will be updated , and point folks to this bloooog (ho12.blogspot.com) and our Facebook page.

Take a deep breath, 'cuz here we gooooooooooo!

(edit - Cleaned up contributor list to mark recent changes.)

Monday, June 29, 2009

Ho12 Comic Jam - Thurs., July 2




You want a piece of this? Well, do ya, PUNK!?!

Come get some at the monthly Ho12 Comic Jam, happening this week at Jack Demsey's pub in lovely Herald Square, NYC. Come show off your funny bones and join in the all out madness that you get when you mix New York's indie comics art stars and a few gallons of beer. Bring your pens, paper and love of fart jokes to:

Jack Demsey's Pub
36 W. 33rd St., in the basement
New York, NY - Just down from Jim Hanley's.

Thursday, July 2nd
7 pm - 11ish


Monday, June 8, 2009

MoCCA 2009


House of Twelve did decent financially; better then last year, not as good as the year before. Kinda average, which is fine.

As you may have read by now, the 69th Regiment Armory is a 105 year old fortress with a wonderful huge open space, decent latrines and meeting rooms, three rocket launchers on display and NO FUCKING AIR CONDITIONING. The main gripe about MoCCA's Puck building past was how people would avoid going up to the 7th floor area because it was so dreadfully hot . Why they would choose a new venue that "solved" the problem by making everyone melt is beyond me. You haven't smelled the Earth until you've inhaled the funk of 1200 sweaty fat fucks, 10 tons of ink and paper and 100 years of military men with each breath.

So obviously, the lack of any AC is my biggest gripe (also maybe more then 1 garbage can for the entire hall would have been a good idea), but a close second is the announcement of next year's table prices; $400 a table. And that's the early bird price, making the regular price, what? $500?

For many of MoCCA's most ardent, core audience it's the self-published comic, or mini or zine or hand crafted silk-screened one-off that makes the show special. How are those people supposed to make the table cost back? Or even close? For much of the room 'making table' is considered a success. At $300 it's doable only if you huckster your ass off for 2 days, but $400-500? There's no way. No one is ever going to make 400 beans selling a $.50 mini. They are cutting out the very people who made the show what it is. And that's a shame.

If I'm not mistaken, MoCCA 2010 is now the most expensive 'small press' show in the country... during the greatest economic nightmare in three generations... with print comics sales losing ground to web comics day by day... with no AC... and one garbage can...

Way to go MoCCA, stay classy.

Cheese



photos by Jenny Gonzalez


Ayo is awesome:





Tuesday, June 2, 2009

MoCCA Week Jam

Hey there one and all, it's MoCCA week here in sunny New York City and as always Ho12 is proud to have it's monthly comic jam in conjunction with the show!  

Come on by Jack Demsey's Pub @ 36 West 33rd street (just up the block from NYC's famous Jim Hanley's Universe Comic Shop) Thursday, June 4th, 2009 from 7 - 11 pm.  Try the food, sample some beers and draw some shitty comics!  

All are welcome, (21 and over) so pack up your pencils, pens and sketchbooks and join in the fun at the House of Twelve Monthly Comics Jam, New York's largest and longest running comics event.


Friday, May 29, 2009

The Real Deal at MoCCA

Picturebox will be selling copies THE REAL DEAL at MoCCA next week. As many of you might know, it's long been one of my favorite comics series ever printed. I am going to pick up new copies to replace my decade old, dog-eared collection. If you buy anything at MoCCA, buy these - oh, and any House of Twelve stuff would be nice too. 

Tuesday, May 5, 2009

Well that worked out pretty well!

Having the jam a week early seemed to work out pretty well, we lost one or two people who have emailed me this week with, "When's the jam?" subject lines, but all in all it was fine.  Best of all it didn't cost me several hundred dollars in electronics, like the 1st April jam did (I left my ipod there). 

We'll be at TCAF next weekend, if you are of a Canadian persuasion, and in Toronto, swing on by and check all the indie comic fun.  We had a blast last year and look forward to going again this year.  Special thanks go to Porter Airlines, who have some kick-ass low airline fares, thank fucking god I don't have to drive again.  

And finally, here's a special look inside the life of yours truly.  I am moving into a new apartment over the next few weeks and as with a lot of things, I get caught up doing stupid shit that never actually is helpful, like making a to scale map of the new joint in Illustrator.  i took a copy to the jam and here's how it was decided to decorate. 

I like Tom Motley's idea of a boob rug.

Monday, April 27, 2009

Ho12 Comic Jam April Part 2


This month Team 12 is double teaming you with two, two, two comic jams!  Check it out to the big dog!   Thanks to half of us going to Toronto next week when the jam would usually occur, we are having the May jam one week early!  Hooray for you and everyone involved!  

Bring your pencils, sketchbooks and love of pain to:

Jack Demsey's Tavern
36 West 33rd street, downstairs
Thursday, April 30, 2009 - 7:oo p.m. - 10-11





Tuesday, April 14, 2009

Jam moved up!

Hello friends, 

Seems I didn't realize that the next Jam (May 2009) was scheduled to be the night before the Toronto comic art festival in — you guessed it — Toronto.  We are headlining the event (and by 'headlining' I mean, we'll be hidden in the back) so it might make it tough to do the whole get drunk, draw comics thing.  So as a special event I am moving the jam UP a week!  It'll be held on April 30, 2009.  Lucky you! You get 2 jams in one month, you fucking lucky bastards!  More details later as I think them up.  

Cheese

Tuesday, March 24, 2009

April 2009 Ho12 Comic Jam

Nice shirt!

The Ho12 Jam is on the hunt for new members, including you!  Come on down to Jack Demsey's next Thursday, April 2 around 7 p.m. and see what the New York Times calls "REMOVED" and Variety raves, "LEGAL PAPERS SERVED!"  With reviews like that, how can you not show up!?!  

Some come on down to 36 west 33rd Street (in the basement) and see the live action cartoonery taking place right before your very eyes! 

Dancing in the aisles is strictly prohibited.  

JACK DEMSEY'S PUB
36 W. 33RD STREET, in the basement
Thursday, April 2
7 p.m. - 11ish

It should be pointed out this is the last jam for founding Ho21 Jam member (he was the third person to show up at the first jam), K. Thor Jensen as he's moving out to eh west coast in a few weeks. Thor and I have been pals for nearly eight years, and he's one of my favorite cartoonists.  Ho12 wishes him well in everything he does. (sniff)

As always, check us out on Facebook and join the group for regular updates.

--------

Here's a secret...

I have been editing old jam books. 

Wednesday, March 11, 2009

A Mess of Video

Fantagraphics just posted a little video preview of Team 12 den mother, Miss Lasko-Gross' new book, 'A Mess of Everything' which we will be debuting at Tcaf in May. It's pretty gosh darned beautiful.

Wednesday, February 25, 2009

Follow meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee




Hooolee! Everyone is talking about the March Ho12 Comic Jam! From sports super-star SHAQ to Pickle_Dick66 (secretly FRANK MILLER!)! Isn't it about time you came on out to one?

The Ho12 Comic Jam
Jack Demsey's Pub
36 West 33rd St., in the basement
7 p.m. to 11ish

--------------------

So yes, I've gone and joined Twitter. Now you can follow not only the goings on of Team 12 here on the blog, or on the Facebook page, but now you can follow the day to day — no, minute to minute — goings on of ME! Good'ole wonderful ME!!! What could be better then that!?! Nothing, I say.

Tuesday, February 24, 2009

The New Math

So if you roll through some of the old posts here you'll find some nice drawings I did for an art show in LA last summer entitled MATH. Mostly it's a bunch of D&D drawings, so lots of monsters and swords and sorcerers type stuff. I had a lot of fun doing it, and decided to do up a few more drawings and publish them into a stand alone book. So here are some doodles of the new stuff that I need to finish up. The expected release date for the book is the Toronto Comic and Art Festival at the beginning in May.








That there is me (from High School) they are looking at in that last picture. It's pretty sweet!

Tuesday, February 10, 2009

The Cons of 2009

Miss, Cheese and Kevin at Tcaf 2007

With exception to the NYCC, (which isn't cool enough to be San Diego*, and too high-end to be about actually interesting comics) I love me some comic-con action.  I really get a thrill piling Team 12 into a van and driving out in the wilds of the great adventure that is North America. 

This year we have a metric ton of material coming out, so much so in fact that there should be a new book or debut at every one!  Lucky you, the Ho12 consumer! Here are the shows and crew members you can expect to see this season...

Tcaf
The Toronto Comic Art Festival
May 9-10, 2009
Toronto Reference Library, 789 Yonge St. 
Toronto, Canada

Every other year we treat ourselves to this wonderful show, crossing borders to sell dick and fart comics is the most honest thrill an artist can feel. I feel I am helping America by contributing to down-paying the national trade deficit.  

Attendees: 


New Stuff: 

• Miss is debuting her latest opus A Mess of Everything at Tcaf!  Come on out and get your filthy hands on one of the first copies off the presses!  AMoE is the sequel to her 2007 graphic novel Escape from Special, both are available from Fantagraphics, and from Miss herself at the con. 

• Brian Musikoff will have copies of the latest in his Mauled! series, Mauled! #4: Mauled by Machines, which I would explain, but it kinda explains itself. 

• Kevin will have copies of his Xeric Award winning Fishtown graphic novel that has been burning up the review charts.

• And I'll have copies of House of Twelve Goes to War! (#4), a collection of autobiographical stories of our intrepid cartoonists in the heat of battle!  All amazingly true, right down to the last detail!  Honest to god!  


MoCCA
The Museum of Comic and Cartoon Art Festival
June 6-7, 2009
The 69th Regiment Armory at Lexington and 25th street
New York, NY

This one's the no-brainer, it's our hometown show.  This year at a new location I talked up a few months back, the 69th Regiment Armory, the show needed a new venue and they found the perfect on here. 

Attendees: 
Cheese, Dave McKenna, Miss Lasko-Gross, Kevin Colden, Kate Allen, Jenny Gonzalez, and more.

New Stuff: 

• I'll be debuting my first solo art book, MATH, some of which I posted right here on this very blog not too long ago.  The final version has several new pieces and more fun notes from Dave's high school calculus notebook.  

• Miss' sequal to Escape from Special, A Mess of Everything will also be available in mass quantities 

• Kevin's Fishtown will be right there, on the table for all to gaze upon.


SPX
The Small Press Expo
September 26-27, 2009
The Marriot Bethesda North Hotel & Conference Center
Bethesda, MD (Actually, I think it's Rockville)

My favorite show, we kill at this gig every year. This is where the big Ho12 guns come out and play.  This year you have three new releases as well as the always popular Strike Team Dodecca Sales Experience managing the table. 

Attendees:

Cheese, Miss Lasko-Gross, Kevin Colden, Dave McKenna, Kate Allen and a special guest, Pete Townsend (no relation).

New Stuff:

House of Twelve #5: Touching Children Stories - Ho12 is proud to announce the latest in it's always popular, cutting edge anthology series with this awesome collection of all-ages stories meant to tickle the funny bone of both adult and child alike. 

• Dave McKenna's long awaited adult comic debut, Monstaland will finally see the light of day.  Dave has take his two favorite things in life, porn and giant monster movies and combined them into one of the most amazing adult comics you'll see this decade. 

• The second issue of Kate Allen's fabulous Milk-Teeth will make it's first showing at SPX 2009! The first issue of M-T was a grand-slam, out-of-the-ball-park smash, selling every copy we had with us. 

Add to this Miss's A Mess of Everything and Kevin's Fishtown and whatever other junk we can fit on the table and Ho12 is looking to murder each and every one of you with our amazing line up of great comics. 

So keep your peepers peeled for the 2009 line up coming from Ho12 Industries and it's affiliated partners. 

* On a side note, I was having a drink or nine with buddy Chris P. the other night and he mentioned that at the last San Diego comic con there was a huge booth, one of the mega booths, a booth usualy reserved for an entire big time movie company, for the TV show 'The Office.'  Y'know, I get it, but FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK YOOOOOOOOOOUUUU, Mr. or Mrs. The Office. Go have OfficeCon 2009 somewhere.  Y'assholes. 

Monday, February 9, 2009

Of Jams and Men

Upstairs at Jack Demsey's at the Ho12 Comic Jam, 2/5/09

So last week's Ho12 Comic Jam was another rousing success. If we keep having nights like these I am going to have to actually start putting thought into this, which after 7 years seems silly. I gotta hand it to the old facebook, I just signed up for it 2 months ago and it's already been responsible for rustlin' back several long lost contributors and bringing in three new guys. Seems my little recruitment plan has worked, let's hope it keeps up.

We are still having issues with getting the basement reserved every month, I really need to talk to Vinne, the manager of Demsey's, about that, I know in the past the relocation to the upstairs has caused at least one person to miss the event, I really don't want that to happen again.

Kevin and Miss seem to have rocked out at the NYCC this past weekend, good on them. Check out Kevin's blog listed on the bottom right of this page. It's twitery.

Seems all our convention appearances are coming together all at once, I will have post later this week going over it all.

Off to kill zombies with friends.

Cheese

Tuesday, January 27, 2009

February Comic Jam, 2/5/09



Yes ladies and gents, that's me, Cheese, right there on the motherfucking moon, planting the Ho12 flag into its crunchy, chocolate shell. I made this trip (at great personal expense) for the sole purpose of telling you about this month's House of Twelve Comic Jam at Jack Demsey's Pub (36 W. 33rd Street, in the basement) next Thursday night at 7 p.m. So please, come on by and share your love with the homely, misshapen comic book peoples and while your there, why not draw a penis joke in their dog-eared, little books? I mean, shit, I went all the way to the goddamn Moon to invite you, you can at least come to midtown and have a beer.


The Ho12 Monthly Comic Jam
Jack Demsey's Pub
36 W. 33rd Street, in the basement
7 p.m. - 11ish

for slightly more info: www.houseoftwelve.com/jam
Also check us out on Facebook: The Ho12 Jam page

Friday, January 9, 2009

January Jam Post-Op report

Man, there are times when the jams just get swept away in their own awesomeness, last night was one of those nights. The January 09 jam was one of my favorite jams in years. Not that I don't usually have a good time, but last night the room was jam packed with great talents and good friends. The jams we made were funny too, I talked McKenna into scanning some of them, hopefully that will happen soon and I will get it all posted in due time.

One of my favorite parts of the evening was when Miss asked for her check.



Don't let anyone tell you comics are a dudes only medium, see she's labeled even!

I only wonder what mine said, after the 8 (at least) beers I had, I don't remember looking.

Next Jam is Feb. 5, 7 pm at Demsey's more details to come as they are available.

Monday, January 5, 2009

Miss and Kevin on the Indie Spinner Rack

http://indiespinnerrack.blogspot.com/

Miss and Kevin let Mr. Phil and Charlito (and through them and their awesome podcast, Indie Spinner Rack, all of us) into their home and feed them donuts and comics. It's a good'un (although they coulda mentioned Ho12 more then .3 seconds at the end, grumble, grumble).